Posted by: noyam | June 9, 2006

Holy, Holy Music

A poster at MoC has gotten all hot and bothered by a new recording, to a dance beat, of Shlomo Carlebach’s Niggun Neshama. I commented:

I think you may be overreacting. Rav Shlomo, in his capacity as a composer, was an artist. I am sure he would understand, and maybe even be in favor of, other arists borrowing and using his niggunim, and reimagining them in their own artistic. The idea of one artist being inspired by another is as old as art itself. To say that just because the beat is more modern makes the music bad just shows a bias against modern music. However, many people enjoy and ar touched by it. Another Jew is singing a Rav Shlomo niggun is not a bad thing. Oh, and I think kishke was referring to having women sing on his albums. And if this recording of Niggun Neshama bothers you, does the one that Neshama Carleback put out bother you? Are Rav Shlomo songs and niggunim so holy that no other artist may touch them? Come on, don’t be ridiculous! Or is it only that artists that you approve of, and whose music you like, that can sing the holy, holy niggunim?

And he responded:

I think you both misunderstand Carlebach. He would not have had any problem with Neshama doing his niggun because she interpreted it the way he intended it. Same with Shlomo Katz’s version. The Ohad techno-disco-trash version that I blogged about earlier and this horrible version with its prust and silly dance moves is another story. Shlomo did not like when people sung his songs incorrectly (which they often did (and still do)). I suggest that he would not have liked this garbage at all from a musical and esthetic perspective. It’s simply crap.

(Notice that he didn’t really address my argument of his approval of who can sing Carlebach. He just reiterated that he thinks techno beats are crappy.)

I don’t understand it. Personal feelings of Reb Shlomo himself, and whether he was holy man, completely aside (I really don’t want to get into it), why is there such an insistence that his music itself is holy? Is there such a concept to holiness of music? I’m conflicted.

On the one hand, music is nothing more than a compilation of notes. However, in the same way that I compilation of letters and words can make a writing holy, perhaps there is a certain way that a compilation of notes and bars can make music holy? But then what is that formula? Does it have to emanate from a holy person? Or maybe a talented musician, who can touch your soul, even if he doesn’t think you have one?

I don’t know, but my feeling is inclined that there is no holiness to any music. Music is a highly, highly personal experience. And if each person can experience the emotional connection to a different piece of music, how can it be universally holy? If Carlebach’s music is holy, does that mean Chaim Dovid’s music is holy? Does that mean Shalshelet’s music is holy? What about Yehoram Gaon? And then why not Andrea Bocelli’s? See where I’m going?

Further, I think it is dangerous to ascribe holiness to a tune (like I’ve written before). If there is any holiness to music, it is because of the words that gets you to sing. When I was in Yeshiva, I once had a conversation with a couple of friends who were visiting. I was saying how I was getting really, really fed up with the repetition of certain songs. They responded that if the boys sang “V’Yed’u, V’Yed’u, V’Yed’u, ki atah shimcha hashem…elyon al kol ha’aretz” over and over, maybe the very idea that hashem is elyon would sink in. They would start to realize. I was skeptical at the time (I knew some of those guys…) but I think the idea has merit. But the song isn’t holy because of the annoying tune it’s put to, or the annoying chasidish accent people insist on singing it in (no, it’s holy because of the Dance that goes with it…duh!). What makes the song holy (if anything) are the holy words that we repeat over and over. There’s a reason we say “Hashem huh Ha’Elokim” seven times at the close of ne’ilah, and why it’s the stirring climax. Repetition reinforces the idea. But the music is simply the vessel to carry the words.

So why the insistence on an almost cult-like adherence to Reb Shlomo’s holy, holy niggunim? So much so, that when a modern artist is inspired to add his own soul to the beautiful tune, to add his own flavor to mix, it inspires such vitriol? To suggest that there’s a “right way” to sing Carlebach is simply absurd! The very point of a Niggun Neshama, a “Song of the Soul” is to let your soul express the song however it can.

I think it’s misguided. Certainly, there are people who love and are inspired by Reb Shlomo’s music. And there are certainly some pieces that I absolutely love and feel inspired by (including niggun neshama). But to canonize the way Reb Shlomo did it as some untouchable piece of our mesorah is to focus the attention of our mesorah in the wrong place.


Responses

  1. Did the original author object to the new versions because they were “unholy” or because they were “bad” or “bastardized” versions of a nice original? It’s not clear from the excerpts you posted.

  2. I’m not sure there’s much of a difference. Once someone starts objecting about the dance moves people are doing with it, it takes the implication to a different level.

    Even so, his objections were merely by way of introduction. Even if his objection was more about taste than about holiness (which I am not entirely sold on) there are still many, many people who ascribe much too much holiness to Carlebach’s music.

  3. You know, on a similar topic, I hate it when modern artists try to put their unique spin on the national anthem.

  4. The holiness of a song is determined by the effect it has on an individual. What I think is holy, Sheik Abdul Rachman will probably not, and that distinction applies w/in a particular religion as well. For a non-frum person living in Iowa, Shlock Rock’s “My Menorah” is like dancing down to the Kotel after Neilah was for me.

    With that being said, the Carlebach niggunim and the more recent musicians who have adopted that style of Jewish Folk music have become very popular in our community in the last 15 years (especially since R’ Shlomo passed away) and for many people that is how they interpret spirituality b/c of the emotions the songs evoke.

    I have heard a few stories of times where R’ Shlomo corrected people who were singing his songs differently than he originally sang them or differently than how he intended them to be sang. I think the author of the blog was probably thinking of this fact and simply judging the new versions from a stylistic and from his personal spiritual point of view. The same guy probably doesn’t like Shlock Rock but for many people it’s a way for them to connect to Judaism in a spiritual/fun way

    Rob

  5. It seems, Rob, from your opinion of music, that you believe that music has no intrinsic holiness.

    I wonder, then, what your opinion of the cult-ification of Carlebach and his music?

    And then how that translated into your relationship with some mechanchim at certain institutions?

  6. One of the problems that I have with all of these artists is not that they don’t have the right to interpret Reb Shlomo’s music as they want but it is about the “intent” as to why they are interpreting his music. Many of these bands and artists do not sell many albums or do well in concerts so they figure if they put a Carlebach niggun on the album it will draw attention. I was once at a concert in Gush Katif and Avraham Fried and Mordecai ben David were performing and the crowd was not into the concert or paying much attention. Later in the concert they lowered a screen, put a picture of REb Shlomo up there, starting singing his songs and all of a sudden people were dancing and singing. Artists like Shlomo Katz, Neshama Carlebach, Chaim Dovid perform there music as well and REb Shlomo’s with the intent to help others spiritually. Not to sell more albums. Another thing to note is that on very few of these albums even give credit to REb Shlomo for his songs they are putting on their album. Artists like Shlomo KAtz, Chaim Dovid, and others in that crowd get permission from the Carlebach family as well as donate some of the proceeds to some of Reb Shlomos tzedakkahs. So to me all of these artists recording the Neshama Niggun is because they just want to jump on the bandwagon to show that they know the niggun that has become so popular so they can sell more albums and more tickets at concerts. TO me this is very sickening and Rabbis should put a stop to this.

  7. Artists like Shlomo Katz, Neshama Carlebach, Chaim Dovid perform there music as well and REb Shlomo’s with the intent to help others spiritually. Not to sell more albums.

    Such doe-eyed naivete. You really think they aren’t interested in selling albums? Or you think this select few was only interested in the spiritual health of the populace? That’s why they went into music? That’s such a weak and poor argument.

    As to attribution, I am not an expert in copyright laws, but if they are using the song illegally, then there is an issue. If not, and they are paying the proper royalties, then where that money goes is up to the estate.

    I don’t dispute that the canonization of Reb Shlomo and his music is widespread (re: your comment about the MBD/AF concert) and that many people like the music. But you still haven’t addressed the point that there isn’t anything holier about Carlebach’s music than anyone else’s, and that your objection to the widespread use of his music by other artists is simply aesthetic. If you were being honest with yourself and everyone else, you would realize that many, many people like and are inspired by a dance beat to Niggun Neshama.

    If you think any musical artist’s intent isn’t to sell records, you’re oblivious to the real world.

  8. “Such doe-eyed naivete.”
    “That’s such a weak and poor argument.”
    “If you were being honest with yourself and everyone else…”
    “…you’re oblivious to the real world.”

    Ouch baby, very ouch!

    I went to the guy’s website, I didn’t get from it that he had a “spiritual” problem with the changing of the songs, he just didn’t like the new sound of the songs – I thought it was a question of taste.

  9. I don’t know, I mean, he does use the word “holy,” but he also uses the word “beautiful.” Maybe he did mean it from a spiritual sense. I don’t know. I think part of Carlebach’s allure was that his melodies were so beautiful that if you opened yourself up emotionally to them, they could be used spiritually. In that sense, it’s hard to imagine anyone letting themself be swept away by techno, I suppose.

  10. Anonymous is simply adding in his personal views of the intentions of certain artists. While I may or may not agree, that is not the discussion we are having. The Nafka Mina (practical difference) would be how Anonymous would view a Carlebach-Techno artist that is independently wealthy and donates all his record/concert money the “R’ Shlomo’s charities” (not sure which charities these are) and also got permission to the owner of the IP.

    I’m not sure music has an intrinsic holiness generally, although once it offers me a spiritual component I think from my point of view it takes on a certain level of intrinsic holiness. I would compare it to Tashmishei Kedusha. So while a tefilin bag has no intrinsic value (it’s a piece of felt or leather if your’e a fancy pants) once it holds the tefilin (something with definite holiness from our point of view) it takes on a certain level of holiness itself.

    I have heard shiurim discussing this very topic (years ago) in fact R’ Bina once discussed this and while I don’t remember much there was definitely a point of view (I believe a halachik one) that said not holy songs can be made holy if holy lirics are applied to them – I think there were German Army marching tunes that were applied to zemiros. Gershon Veroba also discussed this concept when he was a guest on JMintheAM (he parodies real songs and adds a Jewish component to them). You may want to listen to the archive for that interview.

    Rob

  11. Good call Adam. I meant to add to my previous post that the fact that Carlebach songs effect so many people in such a spiritual way implies that he was obviously a master of writing songs that evoked a spiritual holiness in many people of our faith. This ability was probably derived from his personal spirituality but that is a discussion for another time.

    Just like I would be upset to see an empty tefilin bag on the floor, I would be upset to see a Carlebach (or any personally spiritual/holy) niggun being used in a non-spiritual way. For some people Techno is not and will never be spiritual and I understand their frustration. For others Techno will bring them spirituality.

    Rob

  12. My thoughts, quickly:

    No time to read this MC guy’s actual posts, but if his argument was regarding:

    -Legality: (i.e. Copyright, etc.), I am not knowledgable enough to comment…
    -Taste: To each his own. For additional proverbs, push button #3 on Ben Radinsky.
    -Holiness: This is utterly rediculous. I wouldn’t even know where to begin. (Note, I am not denying that a Carlebach song may not be considered “holy” to someone on a personal level, but that in no way should preclude another artist from presenting their own interpretation of the song (assuming it is legally kosher). We are not talking about altering the text of the bible here.

    P.S. – Who is Shalshelet?

  13. I hate to be a “party-pooper” Noyam, but yes, Niggunim and all music can have Kedusha, holiness, to them.
    At this post of mine, you will find, inter alia, this quote:
    Just like ‘life and death are in the tongue [speech]’, so it is that the rise and descent of the soul depend on the Niggun. It all depends of the menagen [the singer or instrumentalist] – what he plays and how he plays it. A niggun can bring one up on its wings to the highest heights, together with the Songs of the Angels, if sung with a pure heart, a spiritual intent, and without alterior motives.
    On the other hand, [chas v'shalom] a niggun can bring one down to Sheol Tachtis – the Depths. Many troubles and punishments come to us because of ruining a niggun.
    .

    It may take more than your 26 years of age to learn this, but those of us who’ve been around the block a bit longer have learned that music can [and perhaps should] have Kedusha! You will find similar ideas in Chabad Chassidus as well.

  14. “Such doe-eyed naivete. You really think they aren’t interested in selling albums? Or you think this select few was only interested in the spiritual health of the populace? That’s why they went into music?”

    I never said that the artists mentioned are not interested ub selling albums. Obviously the amount of money it costs to produce and album needs to be recovered and that is accomplished by selling albums. Even after selling albums there is still money that needs to be recovered which usually comes from the first couple of concerts that come out. On this subject, artists such as Eitan Katz, Shlomo Katz, as well as others do not need to put a Carlebach niggun on it to sell albums. The Carlebach niggunim that are on there albums are previously unreleased niggunim that were passed down somehow that they want to record to allow others to be inspired by these niggunim. NOT to take them and put them on there albums sing them wrong, and then make money off of them. Artists like Eitan Katz who learns in Yeshiva all day, Chaim Dovid who I hear is a sofer in the old city as well as Rabbi Moshe Shur who is the head of QC Hillel have jobs which they make there parnassah not from there music all though they do make something to compensate for their time. Which means they went into music because it is enjoyable for them but not there primary source of income. Shlomo Katz as well does NCSY and other groups involved in kiruv. Have you ever seen MBD, AF, CHevra or anyone else volunteer for a group?

    “But you still haven’t addressed the point that there isn’t anything holier about Carlebach’s music than anyone else’s, and that your objection to the widespread use of his music by other artists is simply aesthetic.”

    I never said that Carlebach music is holier than anyone else. The holiest music in “my opinion” is music that comes from the heart or comes from learning in the beis midrash all day. Not from sitting in a recording studio all day or paying someone 10,000 dollars and above to write an album for you. I was once handed a CD which was techno music from some Rebbe in Israel. While i don’t like techno music and I probably would never listen to it, if thats how people can connect, then i have no problem with it because it is with the right intention. People have to right to change niggunim how they please as long as it is in the same context as the original nigunim and they are just expanding it to there understanding.

  15. Yitz: Thanks, but I’m going to go ahead and not be swayed by your powerful and logically impenetrable argument that “I’ll get it when I’m older” (like social security!) I’m not sure of the origin of your quote, but if it comes from a similar place as Chabbad Chassidus, then you can’t really expect that have an impact on a reasoned, logical argument.

    And if you don’t believe me, see Rav Moshe’s t’shuva on the matter.

    Anon: It seems that you are slowly coming around to acknowledge that I’m right. There is no inherent kedusha in the tune save for it’s impact on the individual and it’s being a vessel for words of tefillah.

    People have to right to change niggunim how they please as long as it is in the same context as the original nigunim and they are just expanding it to there understanding. I disagree with your qualifier that it must be “in the same context” as the original, but even so, who is to judge context in art? The artists you like are pure of heart, but artists who make their living on their god-given talent are not? Surely you see the personal bias in an argument like that.

  16. It seems that you are slowly coming around to acknowledge that I’m right. There is no inherent kedusha in the tune save for it’s impact on the individual and it’s being a vessel for words of tefillah.

    In response to this I think that you don’t have a true understanding of what a real niggun is. Rabbi Trugman has a great sefer on the Mystical Power of music where he really explains the whole idea of song based on Torah concepts. I also think you would benefit from reading the postings HeichalHanigina as well as ASimpleJew has on niggunim.

    “The artists you like are pure of heart, but artists who make their living on their god-given talent are not?” Until you undertand what music is all about you will not undertand what the problem is with the Jewish music today and how it is not about being an “artist” by stealing nigunnim and making it theres. Would you consider a Rebbe who sings a niggun an “artist” or a holy person. Yerachmiel Begun from Miami Boys choir was on the radio one night saying that when he was in the Beis Midrash learning if he couldn’t come up with a good niggun he wasn’t learning hard and good enough.

    Surely you see the personal bias in an argument like that.

    I have no personal bias whatsover but when you read a lot and know the difference between right and wrong and what is appropriate what is not appropriate and what is according to Torah standards and what is not you would not see me as being bias. I was at a little kumsitz and the Rav of the shul was talking about modern music and said he heard a story without mentioning the artists name although it was clear who it was about a concer where the singer was dressed yeshivish and started to go around the stage on roller skates throwing out toys to screaming girls with lasers, smoke and all the other stuff you would see in a club. PLease explain to me how this can help bring some one closer to Hashem.

  17. Anon: I disagree with you. You want to know how it brings people closer to religion? By making it enjoyable for kids. Does Uncle Moishe sing melodious neggunim like Carlebach? Does Shlock Rock? No, but they have religious value because they take what could be a secular form of entertainment and they use it for religious purposes.

    Carlebach did exactly that. He was an innovator in Jewish music. His style was unique – before he came along, “Carlebach music” didn’t exist. At the time (the hippie generation), many people could have (and may have) simply said that music was not a proper way for a Jew to get closer to Hashem, because it had inherent secularism and was used by the goyim for bad purposes (again – the hippie generation); that instead, they should find other ways, such as learning more mussar, to find religious inspiration. And yet Carlebach’s music has, especially after his death, inspired countless Jews.

    Music tastes today have changed. MBD and AF, though very commercialized, changed the landscape of Jewish music in their own way. Yet they were inspirational to many – just listen to the songs sung at any chassan’s tisch, and you’ll see how many belong to the “next generation” of Jewish musicians.

    In a nutshell: Though I personally dislike techno, if it has the same effect on people as Carlebach’s niggunim did, then how can it be wrong?

  18. Anon: without giving away your identity (if you with to remain anonymous), can you tell us a little about your background so we can appreciate the diversity of views here better?

    I have to say, I saw a few more things in your post that I disagreed with. First of all, though I have never been in the Jewish music field, I have been in another field where public persona is a crucial element to earning a living. I am not accusing Yerachmiel Begun of anything, and I don’t know him, but I think that I am skeptical when a person who earns his living through the public, and needs a specific public persona, says something like that on the radio. Maybe it’s true what he says about his learning – but from my experience many times public people tend to show their target audience only what the person wants his audience to see. For instance (again, speaking without knowing Yerachmiel Begun personally, and maybe this does not apply to him specifically), when he went on the radio, he knew how to hit your “responsive chord” – which is to say he know what he needed to say in order to get you to associate with his experiences and therefore be more inclined to listen to his music – which translates into a greater profit for him.

    Also, shouldn’t this debate be focused not on the “artist” or singer, but more on the listener and the effect the music has on him/her? Because, in the end, doesn’t this question ultimately turn on whether the listener has a “religious experience” from the music, and not really depend on the intentions or background of the singer?

  19. Adam-
    I never said anything about Uncle Moishy or Shlock Rock that is bad. They both do things with the right intent. Lenny Solomon has his own albums as well as the Shlock Rock albums because one is geared towards kiruv and childs while his own stuff is geared toward the general frum community. I would not be suprised if Uncle Moishe didn’t even know where the songs come from that he changes the words to. Either way, both Shlock Rock and Uncle Moishe in my opinion bring people closer because of the way they produce their music and there intent as to why they do it. I also believe judging by the clothes he wears and his appearance the Uncle Moishe is not a millionair and does not make much on his music.

  20. Anon: What is the difference between that and the “techno” versions? also, should it be about the artist/singer, or about the experience the listener has?

  21. Also, I have to ask – there is a pretty big market for Jewish music, which is why so many people are trying to break into the “industry.” How do you know what anyone’s intent is? And even if you knew, should it matter?

  22. adam-
    I don’t think there should be a jewish music industry. I think having a jewish music industry is against Torah judaism. The Shulchan Aruch says that since the Beis Hamikdash was destroyed we shouldn’t listen to music at all. There have been heterim given allowing one to listen to music if it can help with your avodas hashem. Music can also be played I assume to be sameach a chasson and kallah at a wedding. Who says that it is ok to turn it into a business? Who gave that heter? Who gave the heter to have a huge concert like the goyem do in stadiums with all of these special effects? Every Rabbi I have asked has agreed with me and when i ask them what is permissible to listen two, MBD,AF and others are not the answers I get.

  23. adam-

    I apologize for missing your question about why i am anonymous. I am anonymous because i haven’t signed up for an account. Nothing more that that. And you asked about my background so i’ll tell you in brief so you can see where i am coming from. I didn’t grow up in a very religious home but i did grow up being in a childrens choir in a synagogue. in college i was involved with an a capella group and slowly became more religious. Music is one of the things that drew me closer. Listing to Shlock Rock growing up. The fist album i actually baught was MBD and i listened to AF and all that other stuff. Once i started learning and understanding the concept of music and singing, i got involved with chassidus and slowly got rid of all of the “jewish music” i had. I felt that it was entertainment by people who could not sing properly. taking voice lessons and also learning from a “producer” of this music i asked how he can teach one thing and produce another and he said because of money.

  24. Anon: I’m not saying whether the existence of the Jewish music industry is “right” or “wrong.” I’m just saying it exists. Many people enter the industry to try to make money. How do you know which ones are pure of heart, and which ones are doing it to earn a living?

    And, second, should it necessarily matter? Isn’t what’s more important the effect it has on the listener? For example, you mentioned that you are interested in chassidus. Well, a Belzer niggun might be very spiritual for a Belz chassid, but not for a Viener chassid. A Chernobiler niggun might have a profound effect on a Chernobiler chassid or a Skvere chassid, but not on a Bobover or Satmer chassid. So what’s “holy,” for lack of a better word, for one person isn’t necessarily “holy” for another person.

    Well, when you travel outside the chassidishe world, the differences in music preferences are even greater. Some people love shlock rock, and use it to attain spirituality, while others don’t. Shlock Rock is, after all, rock and roll, and was produced at a time when rock and roll was the most popular style of music. Today, many people like techno more than rock and roll, and so, perhaps, these techno versions of Carlebach songs are the “Shlock Rock” of today…

  25. Adam-
    Shlock Rock never took Jewish music and made it theirs. They took secular music and turned it Jewish to get people interested. Any Jewish music they has was there own. I have no problem with techno music which i have stated before but taking a jewish song and turning it techno is taking away the kedusha it had when it was a purley Jewish niggun. I don’t know if it is available on line but Hamodia had a great interview with Ben Tzion Shenker on modern Jewish music and he said that the music today has lost its yiddishe roots. Regarding who today is doing it for the right reasons you can tell by their actions. Although i am no fan of Shloime Dachs, he is always doing fundraisers and always doing chesed. Also at the end of a concert the artists who are doing it with the right intentions will come and meet and spend time with the audience and speak words of Torah. Not have a backstage dressing room and run out after the show. To me, I can tell by how the person is singing. To me somoeone singing out of their nose like most of the music today is singing from the pocket because that it what people will buy. I wouhld like to see someone like Sruli Williger who changed his name to market better, appear on American Idol and see what Simon Cowell has to say about his voice. I think it would be quite the entertainment. I also want to add how i think it is funny that many of the people who have Carlebach niggunim on their albums actually despised him while he was still living. But now that he passed away its ok to like him now that they can make money off of him. There was a video link the the BlogDM blog with MBD talking about how Reb Shlomo had a problem with him stealing his niggunim and MBD doesn’t seem to think there is a problem with it

  26. Noyam,
    I’m sorry if I seemed to be condescending in my remark about your age, please forgive me – that was NOT my intention.
    If you read the post that I linked to, you should have discovered that I was quoting directly from the words of Rebbe Shmuel Eliyahu of Zvolin, father of the first Modzitzer Rebbe.
    To put down Chabad as not being able to “have an impact on a reasoned, logical argument” is itself quite illogical. Chabad did not begin with today’s Meshichistim [who, I'll admit are problematic and not very logical]. The Baal HaTanya, the Mittler Rebbe, the Tzemach Tzedek, the Maharyatz – who was one of R. Shlomo Carlebach’s early Rebbes – are certainly not people to put down easily.
    Exactly what Teshuva of Reb Moshe’s were you referring to?

  27. Anon: Wasn’t there a time when the music that is today referred to as being from “yiddishe roots” was actually innovative and not derived from yiddishe roots at all? If something harkens back to the 19th century, does that mean it’s derived from our yiddishe roots? Why is the 19th century (or any other century) the cutoff? Certainly the Jews were not singing Carlebach-style niggunim when they were singing shirah and crossing the Yam Suf! At some point, this style was innovated. When that happened, it was probably a break from its “yiddishe roots” of the time. Why was that OK, but today it is not OK? Why is the 19th, or 18th century, which is certainly a long time ago by our standards but not a long time ago in the scheme of the Jewish People’s 4000-year history, given more credibility than today?

  28. Adam-
    Today the music is going in the opposite direction of holiness. In the previous generations, alot of the chassidic niggunim especially in Chabad were similar to the goyesh tunes but were changed into a niggun and transformed to be jewish. This was how many niggunim originated until recently. Now though, the artists are taking niggunim and transforming them into secular music with hebrew words which is the exact opposite of which was going on.

  29. Anon: I enjoyed reading your comment in which you provided some information regarding your background. While you are at it, perhaps you can shed some light on how it is that you came across this blog and began to comment frequently. (I don’t recall reading comments by you on any prior posts).

    P.S. Anon: We are finally in agreement about something: Williger has no talent.

  30. Anon: If you were right about that, you’d have a valid point…
    …BUT…
    They are taking Jewish words, and even Jewish melodies, and putting them to goyishe music or beats. So if you took some pasuk from Tehillim, let’s say, and put it to techno, that would be the same thing as how the Lubavicher niggunim were created, right? Isn’t that what’s happening here?

  31. I guess what I mean to say is, it’s not just Hebrew words, but Jewish words. And the final product (goyishe melodies plus Jewish words) is a Jewish song, right? I mean, it’s not like anyone other than Jews are listening to it, so it’s not intended to be secular music, correct? According to how you described the way many chassidic niggunim were created: Goyish tunes + Jewish twist (slight alteration in tune or addition of Jewish lyrics) = Jewish music.

  32. In the previous generations, alot of the chassidic niggunim especially in Chabad were similar to the goyesh tunes but were changed into a niggun and transformed to be jewish.

    This is ridiculous. Just because it’s older, it’s OK? What makes music “Jewish” as opposed to “Secular?” If it’s that the tune was composed by a non-Jew then it applies to both. If it’s because you don’t realize that the origins of music from Chassidish Europe is as secular as the origins of today’s popular music, then, again, you are blindly insisting on random categorizations of “Jewish,” which makes no sense.

    Or is a niggun “Jewish” because the only words are “oy”?

  33. Moishe- I cam across this blog because Noyam had commented on another blog i was looking at and i thought the picture was interesting so i looked at the profile, saw the blog, and saw this post and i did not agree with it since i believe MOChassid was right on the mark.

    Adam- Thats not what is happening here. Older niggunim that became niggunim were actually popular non-jewish songs that people were listing to anyway so they took those songs and tried to bring them to kedusha. The modern version of this would be Shlock
    Rock or how MBD changed words to write the song Yidden. Whats happening now is that jewish “artists” are sitting in a studio trying to write music, the same way that the goyem do, that sounds exactly like the goyish music. If you take a chevra song make it instrumental and put in on Z100 people would not know it is Jewish. People growing up not knowing what techno is are now hearing this goyish music, and now start listening to real goyish techno then go clubbing and then lose their jewish identity and are no longer connected. This can be compared to marijuana and other drugs that people say lead to heavier drugs. Its the same concept. What Reb Shlomo would do is perform in clubs to bring people out of the clubs. now these performers are taking people who have never been in a club and taking them in. I have seen first hand people that this has happened to.

  34. Moishe- I cam across this blog because Noyam had commented on another blog i was looking at and i thought the picture was interesting so i looked at the profile, saw the blog, and saw this post and i did not agree with it since i believe MOChassid was right on the mark.

    Adam- Thats not what is happening here. Older niggunim that became niggunim were actually popular non-jewish songs that people were listing to anyway so they took those songs and tried to bring them to kedusha. The modern version of this would be Shlock
    Rock or how MBD changed words to write the song Yidden. Whats happening now is that jewish “artists” are sitting in a studio trying to write music, the same way that the goyem do, that sounds exactly like the goyish music. If you take a chevra song make it instrumental and put in on Z100 people would not know it is Jewish. People growing up not knowing what techno is are now hearing this goyish music, and now start listening to real goyish techno then go clubbing and then lose their jewish identity and are no longer connected. This can be compared to marijuana and other drugs that people say lead to heavier drugs. Its the same concept. What Reb Shlomo would do is perform in clubs to bring people out of the clubs. now these performers are taking people who have never been in a club and taking them in. I have seen first hand people that this has happened to.

  35. “This is ridiculous. Just because it’s older, it’s OK? What makes music “Jewish” as opposed to “Secular?”

    What makes music Jewish instead of secular is how it is used. I used as my example of Shlock Rock which is modern music turned jewish to help people come closer to their Yiddishkeit. It has nothing to do with age.

    “insisting on random categorizations of “Jewish,” which makes no sense”

    I am not making random categorations. there is plenty of Jewish music that is english or from secular music that i think is fine. Through secular Klezmer Music Andy Statman became more religious. There is a Punk/Ska artist named King Django who came out with an album of old Yiddish songs and Zemiros in a ska album dedicated to his grandparents who perished in the Shoah. Although it is secular, it is very Jewish. The fact is that people coming from a religious background should not be using secular music in the Jewish world. Of the modern artists that have used secular music that I do not have a problem with are those artists who came from non-religious households who had no other way to express themselves. Many of these artists now would not go back and listen to secular music anymore. Everytime you listen to music whether or not you realize it, the music influences you. The Beyond Teshuva blog has a few posts regarding this issue if you want to read further about it.

  36. Anon: I disagree with you. I think your comparison is off the mark. Chevra, to use your example, is a knock-off of the backstreet boys, similar to how the chassidishe niggunim were knock-offs on tunes of that time.

  37. Also, anon, you could have made your same argument for Shlock Rock in the ’80s, couldn’t you? Yet you think Shlock Rock is OK. You could probably have said the same thing for Carlebach in the ’70s and the same thing for Chassidishe niggunim in the 18th and 19th centuries, yet you think that those are OK too. Of course the Jewish music is going to reflect the day’s popular preference of music… I think that you are being to harsh on the techno style because you associate it with the “bad,” or “disobedient,” or “ungodly,” or “unholy” culture of today. But plenty of people were saying that Rock and Roll was downfall of our morality in the ’80s, and let’s not even start with what music did to culture in the ’60s and ’70s!

  38. Anon’s argument boils down to intent. He’s OK with making secular sounding music into Jewish songs so long as it is done l’shem shamayim which for him is either to Mekarev people or to create niggunim that evoke spirituality. He’s against it if it’s simply to sell more records and if it has a bad influence on frum kids. Although this point of view could have been delineated more concisely it’s not a crazy argument to make. The problem with the argument is an age old problem that challenges judges and juries on a daily basis. Intent is often difficult to prove. Anon suggested looking at people’s behavior but you never know a person’s true intent. I agree that there are people in the Jewish Music Industry (for lack of better word) that appear to simply be in it for the money. I agree that some of the albums that singers come out with sound insincere b/c the songs were written for them and they just recorded someone elses song. That’s why I stick to Regesh, Dveykus, Carlebach, Shlomo and Eitan Katz, Abie Rotenberg, Shlomo Simcha etc. It doesn’t make the others bad it just appears to me that the ones I listed are more sincere and therefore more my taste. I think the other artists have good qualities too but are better suited for a different listener. I don’t think many have ill intentions and I don’t think they are the cause of kids going off the derech. Years of repression during their formative years and their parents bad mazel do a lot more damage than the Hamsa Boys.

    BTW, Anon welcome aboard.

    Rob

  39. Rob-
    Unfortunately the majority of the Jewish music word has the wrong intent. Neshama Carlebach was on the Norm Laster show one morning describing how people perceive Reb Shlomo as not caring about money since he passed away not having any. She said he did care about money and he chose to gave it all away. She told a story how Reb Shlomo was giving a concert and after the concert the person who arranged the concert did not pay him telling Reb Shlomo he was just going to give it away anyway so he doesn’t need it. Reb Shlomo was unigue because yes he did play many concerts for money, but that money was not spent on himself like the artiists of today do. One more thing about intent. I have a good friend who is in one of these jewish boy bands who knows i would never listen to his music and he told me he just does it for the fun of it. But the producer of his group does it to get his own name out and to make money off of it. My friend also told me that he was in the middle of coming out with an album with his group and wanted to put some Carlebach niggunim on it. They ended up not recording the album because they TRIED to get permission and for a reason i am not sure could not get permission from the family. At the same time, this same producer of my friends jewish boy band came out with an album with the CArlebach stuff on in even though proper permission was not granted.

  40. I wonder what anon thinks about this video. Talk about Soul.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2383751339221125214&q=pischu

    Rob

  41. The funny thing is that he actually sounds a lot like Carlebach!

  42. Rob-
    I saw the video yesterday and i thought it was one one of the funniest videos i ever saw but it would make Reb Shlomo proud. The Pischu Li was being sung to help people become closer to G-d and that would make Reb Shlomo happy. After all there are stories of the the last pope listening to Reb Shlomos music as well. Reb Shlomos music has and will continue to inspire people of all religions and all religious denominations. Whats even more interesting is that you can find some of his albums in the Gospel/Folk sections in many non jewish bookstores and record stores.

  43. The Pischu Li was being sung to help people become closer to G-d and that would make Reb Shlomo happy.

    How can it be the case that someone who doesn’t believe in your God truly had the intent to bring people closer? Maybe he was thinking “this is the first step in conversion.” Or “this’ll bring them closer to Jesus.” You have no idea.

    And the point is that it’s IRRELEVANT! Especially because you have no idea. The singer/songwriter/composer’s intent is IRRELEVANT. The only relevance is the effect on the listener. The crowd enjoyed an experience perhaps bringing them closer to God, perhaps bringing them close to tears, perhaps closer to the door. Who knows.

    Because this whole thing is so highly subjective, it can’t possibly be objectively quantified or qualified as “Holy.” And since that was my WHOLE POINT originally, I’m glad we’ve come back around full circle.

  44. “How can it be the case that someone who doesn’t believe in your God truly had the intent to bring people closer?”

    You obviously don’t know much about religion if your saying they don’t believe in your “G-d”. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are the three biggest MONOTHEISTIC religions that all believe in the same G-d just call Gd wih different names and believe in different prophets and writings.

    Maybe he was thinking “this is the first step in conversion.” Or “this’ll bring them closer to Jesus.” You have no idea.

    Are you referring to Reb Shlomo or the guy singing in the video?

    If you watch the singers expressions as well as the people in the audience you can tell that the songing is having a very spiritual effect on them. Whenever music is used in a spiritual and positive way like this and having to do with religion and bringing people closer to G-d with liturgy coming from Tanach or just a niggun with no words can be considered holy. you do not see that with the entertainment side of the music of people changing original Reb Shlomo niggunim

  45. You obviously don’t know much about religion if your saying they don’t believe in your “G-d”. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are the three biggest MONOTHEISTIC religions that all believe in the same G-d just call Gd wih different names and believe in different prophets and writings.

    You’ve now lost any credibility you may have had left. This is an utterly idiotic statement. If you are really saying that bringing me closer to Jesus is a religious experience worthy of being called “Holy” and more deserving of Reb Shlomo’s niggun than a Jew singing it for actual Jewish entertainment, then you are beyond stupid.

    You are so in love with your cultish attachment to Reb Shlomo, and so against contemporary Jewish artists that in your mind, you’ve drawn yourself into a corner, and the only way out is to say that Judaism, Islam and Christianity are all on equal levels of holiness and all worship the same God. You are a FOOL. Pure and simple.

  46. “If you are really saying that bringing me closer to Jesus is a religious experience worthy of being called “Holy” and more deserving of Reb Shlomo’s niggun than a Jew singing it for actual Jewish entertainment, then you are beyond stupid.”

    1. You are obviously the one who is beyond stupid since you cannot have rational discussion without getting angry and calling people names. Once someone starts name calling it usually means the namecalling is a result of them losing.
    2. I did not mention Jesus once and I don’t think that the people singing did either so you are out of place to say what you did. Have you ever heard of the Noachite laws? There is not a clear answer on whether or not Jesus is considered Avodah Zarah or not which is why J for J are convincing to a person who is not knowledgable.

    “You are so in love with your cultish attachment to Reb Shlomo, and so against contemporary Jewish artists that in your mind, you’ve drawn yourself into a corner”

    1. More signs or clear anger on your part and name calling once again.
    2. Who said i have a cultish attachment to Reb Shlomo? Have you seen the CDs i own or seen the music i listen to and support?
    3. Where have i said i am against contemporary Jewish artists? There are plenty of contempory artists that have Jewish music that are very talented that i would listen too. Look at Yosef Karduner, Yehudah Glanz, Aron Razel, Diaspora Yeshiva Band, Cantor Helfgot, Cantor David Wedyger, Shlomo and Eitan Katz.
    I have just listed 8 and i can list a whole lot more contemporary artists that i listen to too prove to you i have no cultish attachment to Reb Shlomo.

    “You are a FOOL. Pure and simple”

    Expressing anger and name calling once again. Who are you to determine that other religious worship of G-d besides Judaism is holy or not. Are you telling me someone like Mother Theresa or other major world religious leaders are not holy people just because they are not Jewish. I think you have a one track mind,are not opened minded and are never going to change your opinions on certain things even if you know you are completely wrong. Your anger and name calling have proven this

  47. “First of all, for the many Christians that believe that Jesus is God, one part of the Holy Trinity, they are most certainly worshipping a different god than I.”

    The Trinity from what i understand does not potray Jesus as a G-d. Christians believe he is the son of G-d which is why they are Christian and not Jewish. If they believed that Jesus was G-d clearly the Rabbonim would have declared Christianit Avodah Zoarah but they haven’t.

    “You don’t think he believes in glorifying Jesus?! You think I’m off base to make such a suggestion?”

    I will once again state that i don’t know who was singing and the video caption did not say who was singing either so there is no proof that he is trying to glorify anyone. I work one guy who is a devout member of the catholic church and a member of opeis day and he is trying to go closer to G-d every day, not to Jesus. He uses Jesus teachings to help him come closer and he has told me that in generalthey do not “Gloryfing Jesus”

    “That’s an essential value judgment to Judaism and all religion. We’re right, and they are wrong. I think you’ll be hard pressed to find any Jewish source for saying that worshipping Jesus is Holy, in any way. Seriously, at this point you’ve lost track of the initial argument to the point that you’re no longer discussing the relative merits of Music in general, but rather defending Christianity. Is so strong your opposition to Carlebach tunes put to dance beats that this is as far as you will go?”

    As a Jewish person I believe that our religion is right but i would never say they are wrong as they might be. What you have to realize that all the world religions are breakoffs of Judaism and have taken things from Judaism which is why you cannot say they are wrong with everything, just the stuff that came after our Tanach ends.
    I have also said before that I don’t care if Carlebach music is put to techno as long as it remains with the same intent Reb Shlomo had and in the same spirit Reb Shlomo had and with the permission of the family of Reb Shlomo.

  48. Anon: You are wrong about this: The Trinity from what i understand does not potray Jesus as a G-d.

    That is, in fact, an essential part of the Trinity, part of it’s definition. There is God, The Father, God, The Son and the Holy Spirit. Three simultaneous and eternal parts of the same God.

    Wikipedia: Within Christianity, the doctrine of the Trinity states that God is a single Being who exists, simultaneously and eternally, as a perichoresis of three persons (personae, prosopa): Father (the Source, the Eternal Majesty); the Son (the eternal Logos or Word, incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth); and the Holy Spirit (the Paraclete or advocate). Since the 4th Century AD, in both Eastern and Western Christianity, this doctrine has been stated as “One God in Three Persons,” all three of whom, as distinct and co-eternal “persons” or “hypostases,” share a single Divine essence, being, or nature.

  49. If they believed that Jesus was G-d clearly the Rabbonim would have declared Christianit Avodah Zoarah but they haven’t.

    This is also misleading. First of all, the Rambam did say that. IN fact, it is generally understood that fear of persecution and diplomatic concerns prevented the european leadership from doing the same.

    Christianity is certainly not Noachide. And that choir was a Christian Gospel Choir.

    And I find it tedious that we’re having a discussion about Christianity, as though this is in any way relevant to the original post. Clearly, your reference to Opus Dei (misspelling notwithstanding – maybe you heard it in “The Da Vinci Code” but didn’t read it?) is also irrelevant. Do you really dispute that Christians seek to glorify Jesus and attain salvation through him? You’ve never heard a churchgoer yell out “Praise Jesus!”? Maybe they don’t do that at all the “opeis day” meetings you go to, but Opus Dei is not by any means mainstream Christianity.

  50. I have read the Da Vinvi code and I have not attended any Opus Dei meetings and I have never been in a church for any sort of religious service so I am not familiar with what goes on there. I am also not familiar with that Rambam which you are quoting as the reason for why the Rabbonim did not declare Christianity Avodah Zarah. I will agree with you that some Evangelists and Right wing Christians do have a goal of converting jews which is why all the major Jewish organizations are putting counter-missionary awareness out for the upcoming month of July. Besides all of that I still see no problem with a Gospel Choir singing REb Shlomo. What is your opinion of the new group of Jews who call themseleves JuBu’s? They are Jews who practice Buddhism because of the spirituality?

  51. Unfortunately you took your post Village Idiot down before my comments were posted but i would like to read your article that you had linked about you declaring yourself a centrist because i truly believe you are a liberal so i want to read it before i give my commentary. By the way, i explained earlier why i am anon and sooner or later i will have a name. my wife has two blogs but if i told you them you might come after me since you might know who i am since i live in KGH and am the same age as you

  52. i truly believe you are a liberal

    And you’ve been wrong before, so this isn’t surprising.

    if i told you them you might come after me since you might know who i am since i live in KGH and am the same age as you

    Do I strike you as a physically violent person? I don’t know what “might come after” you means, honestly, but don’t flatter yourself that I care who you are. If you used a made-up name simply as an identifier, so that people could know who the comments came from, you could save yourself the time of having to say “this is the same anon from the Carlebach post.” Make up a name. Call yourself Shlomo for all I care. That’s the only reason I at all mentioned your anonymity. Not because I care who you are, nor because I might seek you out in person if I did.

    That’s really an odd thing to say.

  53. i don’t strike you as a violent person. i was only joking around.
    -”Shlomo”

  54. [...] and totally (excuse my irreverence here, sorry) asinine.  (I know, I’ve railed about this before, but this is taking the other side to a whole new level of stupidity.)  Take a look at the [...]


Leave a response

Your response:

Categories